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	<title>Comments for jonbho</title>
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	<link>http://jonbho.net</link>
	<description>probably reflecting too much</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 13:44:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on The undecidability of the halting problem is not very important by jonbho</title>
		<link>http://jonbho.net/2012/05/04/the-undecidability-of-the-halting-problem-is-not-very-important/#comment-375</link>
		<dc:creator>jonbho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 13:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonbho.net/?p=61#comment-375</guid>
		<description>Bjorn, cool to read that and your comments! Indeed we are examining close areas with a similar take on things :)

I&#039;ve been thinking lately that, although it will take a long time, and I&#039;m not too sure of the commercial approach (there is none within practical reach), working in this area will probably the Work of my life.

So yeah, I&#039;ll keep writing here, and I hope to set up some open work &amp; discussion area somewhere/somehow. But my available time is limited now, so for some time I&#039;ll probably keep just posting articles every now and then.

I&#039;ll definitely be really happy to discuss things and approaches!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bjorn, cool to read that and your comments! Indeed we are examining close areas with a similar take on things <img src='http://jonbho.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking lately that, although it will take a long time, and I&#8217;m not too sure of the commercial approach (there is none within practical reach), working in this area will probably the Work of my life.</p>
<p>So yeah, I&#8217;ll keep writing here, and I hope to set up some open work &#038; discussion area somewhere/somehow. But my available time is limited now, so for some time I&#8217;ll probably keep just posting articles every now and then.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll definitely be really happy to discuss things and approaches!</p>
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		<title>Comment on The undecidability of the halting problem is not very important by @bjornsing</title>
		<link>http://jonbho.net/2012/05/04/the-undecidability-of-the-halting-problem-is-not-very-important/#comment-374</link>
		<dc:creator>@bjornsing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 13:35:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonbho.net/?p=61#comment-374</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s amazing how alike we think. :) I had almost the same thought when I read your first post on this subject (which I&#039;ve also been thinking about: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3507901), even wrote this little comment on Hacker News: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3508365.

If you do decide to work on this let me know. I&#039;d love to discuss some approaches... :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s amazing how alike we think. <img src='http://jonbho.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  I had almost the same thought when I read your first post on this subject (which I&#8217;ve also been thinking about: <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3507901" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3507901</a>), even wrote this little comment on Hacker News: <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3508365" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3508365</a>.</p>
<p>If you do decide to work on this let me know. I&#8217;d love to discuss some approaches&#8230; <img src='http://jonbho.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on The undecidability of the halting problem is not very important by jonbho</title>
		<link>http://jonbho.net/2012/05/04/the-undecidability-of-the-halting-problem-is-not-very-important/#comment-365</link>
		<dc:creator>jonbho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 12:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonbho.net/?p=61#comment-365</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your comment. As far as I understand, what Turing actually proved was that an algorithm that determines whether a given program halts can not exist at all. Of course, for a definition of program and computer that involve non-finite states.

And since even small amounts state very quickly pile-up to become impractically large to analyze, it can be trivial, but totally impractical to determine the behavior of a program on finite-state computers, such that we&#039;re better off treating things with the same tools used to analyze programs running on non-finite-state machines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comment. As far as I understand, what Turing actually proved was that an algorithm that determines whether a given program halts can not exist at all. Of course, for a definition of program and computer that involve non-finite states.</p>
<p>And since even small amounts state very quickly pile-up to become impractically large to analyze, it can be trivial, but totally impractical to determine the behavior of a program on finite-state computers, such that we&#8217;re better off treating things with the same tools used to analyze programs running on non-finite-state machines.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The undecidability of the halting problem is not very important by Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://jonbho.net/2012/05/04/the-undecidability-of-the-halting-problem-is-not-very-important/#comment-364</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 18:12:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonbho.net/?p=61#comment-364</guid>
		<description>I completely agree with your conclusion, and I&#039;m glad someone finally wrote about this, but I don&#039;t know if I agree with you for the same reasons.

I admit I haven&#039;t read Turing&#039;s work directly, and someone correct me if I&#039;m wrong, but from what I understand, the main insight that Turing gave us for the halting problem, is that for you to determine whether a program that uses N bits of state (i.e. memory) halts or not, then you need a decider (i.e. a program designed to decide whether its input halts or not) with at least N+1 bits of state.

As far as I understand, *that* is the real insight, which is not what most people understand as the halting problem.

Now of course, if you apply the above insight to a Turing machine, which is an imaginary machine with infinite memory and which will never exist in the real world, then of course to decide whether a program halts in the general case you need infinite amounts of memory in order to run the decider. Therefore, in a Turing machine (i.e. in Turing&#039;s imaginary machine), it&#039;s impossible to construct this decider.

But coming back to the real world, it is mathematically proven that for finite-state machines, i.e. machines with finite memory (or &quot;computers&quot;, as I like to call them), you can trivially decide whether a program halts or not, because if a program doesn&#039;t halt then it eventually has to start repeating states (due to the machine having a finite number of possible states).

Of course, it might take you an intractable amount of time to reach that conclusion if you just use the most naive algorithm to determine if a certain state repeats itself, but it certainly is possible to design much more clever and faster algorithms that can determine that, sometimes in a very short amount of time.

The only thing that is mathematically proven is that to determine whether a program which uses N bits of memory halts, then in the worst case you need at least N+1 bits of memory to run the generic decider.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely agree with your conclusion, and I&#8217;m glad someone finally wrote about this, but I don&#8217;t know if I agree with you for the same reasons.</p>
<p>I admit I haven&#8217;t read Turing&#8217;s work directly, and someone correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, but from what I understand, the main insight that Turing gave us for the halting problem, is that for you to determine whether a program that uses N bits of state (i.e. memory) halts or not, then you need a decider (i.e. a program designed to decide whether its input halts or not) with at least N+1 bits of state.</p>
<p>As far as I understand, *that* is the real insight, which is not what most people understand as the halting problem.</p>
<p>Now of course, if you apply the above insight to a Turing machine, which is an imaginary machine with infinite memory and which will never exist in the real world, then of course to decide whether a program halts in the general case you need infinite amounts of memory in order to run the decider. Therefore, in a Turing machine (i.e. in Turing&#8217;s imaginary machine), it&#8217;s impossible to construct this decider.</p>
<p>But coming back to the real world, it is mathematically proven that for finite-state machines, i.e. machines with finite memory (or &#8220;computers&#8221;, as I like to call them), you can trivially decide whether a program halts or not, because if a program doesn&#8217;t halt then it eventually has to start repeating states (due to the machine having a finite number of possible states).</p>
<p>Of course, it might take you an intractable amount of time to reach that conclusion if you just use the most naive algorithm to determine if a certain state repeats itself, but it certainly is possible to design much more clever and faster algorithms that can determine that, sometimes in a very short amount of time.</p>
<p>The only thing that is mathematically proven is that to determine whether a program which uses N bits of memory halts, then in the worst case you need at least N+1 bits of memory to run the generic decider.</p>
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		<title>Comment on I want to fix programming by I want to fix programming &#8211; 编程改革 &#124; 极地 EA163</title>
		<link>http://jonbho.net/2012/01/24/i-want-to-fix-programming/#comment-344</link>
		<dc:creator>I want to fix programming &#8211; 编程改革 &#124; 极地 EA163</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Mar 2012 14:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonbho.net/?p=18#comment-344</guid>
		<description>[...] [本文英文原文链接：I want to fix programming ]   此条目是由 admin 发表在 IT资讯 分类目录的。将固定链接加入收藏夹。 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] [本文英文原文链接：I want to fix programming ]   此条目是由 admin 发表在 IT资讯 分类目录的。将固定链接加入收藏夹。 [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on I want to fix programming by Nicholas Harris</title>
		<link>http://jonbho.net/2012/01/24/i-want-to-fix-programming/#comment-320</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 15:24:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonbho.net/?p=18#comment-320</guid>
		<description>Master Chief, Super Mario, Niko Bellic, and N+ all jump, but one does wonder why the act of jumping itself (within a physically-constrained world with collision, friction, flotation, gravity, magnetism, wind, waves and particulate-spray) cannot be abstracted out as a common factor, leaving only the need to tweak the parameters that gave each their own characteristic behaviour in a runtime simulation, like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XUWpze_A_s&amp;feature=youtu.be

Yet, great though this note that the (jump) function knows &quot;how high&quot; and is linked to the game&#039;s control interface. Is this intrinsic to the act of jumping common to all platform games? No.

Then this (jump) acts in concert with the (gravity) and (move) functions, each of which mix similar collision code and characteristic parameters in hard-to-edit places. It isn&#039;t as if the program has a set of adjustible sliders for gravity, movement speed and jump strength. The collision code ought to act as a constraint on a dynamical system of tangible, weighted, entities. In a sense &quot;The World&quot; should be a given: a stage onto which your actors may (attempt to) perform.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Master Chief, Super Mario, Niko Bellic, and N+ all jump, but one does wonder why the act of jumping itself (within a physically-constrained world with collision, friction, flotation, gravity, magnetism, wind, waves and particulate-spray) cannot be abstracted out as a common factor, leaving only the need to tweak the parameters that gave each their own characteristic behaviour in a runtime simulation, like:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XUWpze_A_s&#038;feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XUWpze_A_s&#038;feature=youtu.be</a></p>
<p>Yet, great though this note that the (jump) function knows &#8220;how high&#8221; and is linked to the game&#8217;s control interface. Is this intrinsic to the act of jumping common to all platform games? No.</p>
<p>Then this (jump) acts in concert with the (gravity) and (move) functions, each of which mix similar collision code and characteristic parameters in hard-to-edit places. It isn&#8217;t as if the program has a set of adjustible sliders for gravity, movement speed and jump strength. The collision code ought to act as a constraint on a dynamical system of tangible, weighted, entities. In a sense &#8220;The World&#8221; should be a given: a stage onto which your actors may (attempt to) perform.</p>
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		<title>Comment on I want to fix programming by Nicholas Harris</title>
		<link>http://jonbho.net/2012/01/24/i-want-to-fix-programming/#comment-319</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 14:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonbho.net/?p=18#comment-319</guid>
		<description>Ha! I&#039;ve already spent 20 years on researching the design for my programming language Zeitgeist. Probably, got about 5 years of implementation work ahead of me for a basic prototype and it isn&#039;t remotely as advanced as what you propose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha! I&#8217;ve already spent 20 years on researching the design for my programming language Zeitgeist. Probably, got about 5 years of implementation work ahead of me for a basic prototype and it isn&#8217;t remotely as advanced as what you propose.</p>
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		<title>Comment on I want to fix programming by Nicholas Harris</title>
		<link>http://jonbho.net/2012/01/24/i-want-to-fix-programming/#comment-318</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 14:33:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonbho.net/?p=18#comment-318</guid>
		<description>Programming is a necessarily specific monologue when it should be an exploratory dialogue. You may not even properly know what you want when you embark on a given project, the act of refining the computer&#039;s &quot;erroneous&quot; / &quot;misunderstood&quot; model would force you to think about the ramifications of your naive base assumptions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Programming is a necessarily specific monologue when it should be an exploratory dialogue. You may not even properly know what you want when you embark on a given project, the act of refining the computer&#8217;s &#8220;erroneous&#8221; / &#8220;misunderstood&#8221; model would force you to think about the ramifications of your naive base assumptions.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Quick reflections on yesterday&#8217;s post by jonbho</title>
		<link>http://jonbho.net/2012/01/26/quick-reflections-on-yesterdays-post/#comment-305</link>
		<dc:creator>jonbho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 19:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonbho.net/?p=40#comment-305</guid>
		<description>Greg, indeed, that definitely hits the nail, thanks for the link!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg, indeed, that definitely hits the nail, thanks for the link!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Quick reflections on yesterday&#8217;s post by Greg Nelson</title>
		<link>http://jonbho.net/2012/01/26/quick-reflections-on-yesterdays-post/#comment-304</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 19:13:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonbho.net/?p=40#comment-304</guid>
		<description>I think the key to your effort is you can&#039;t visualize / see what the computer does given the code you have. You have to keep a mental map between code and effect/computer behavior. Check out how Brett Victor tries to make this immediate, starts about 2 mins in http://vimeo.com/36579366</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the key to your effort is you can&#8217;t visualize / see what the computer does given the code you have. You have to keep a mental map between code and effect/computer behavior. Check out how Brett Victor tries to make this immediate, starts about 2 mins in <a href="http://vimeo.com/36579366" rel="nofollow">http://vimeo.com/36579366</a></p>
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